I’m in a major horse training funk. I got Dobbin in 2004. He was a mess. I don’t have a complete history, but from what I know he was definitely abused (old rope scars, etc.) and terrified of whips and most everything else, started very young (say about 2 yo) by people who knew nothing about horses, sold and started again around 3 after he was gelded (saddle plopped on and 9 inch shank bit), ridden in a harsh-handed, ventroflexed forced rackish-gait (extremely confused about his gaits when I got him), ridden in a pack horse fashion on trails by different inexperienced riders, fell more than once with riders, malnourished, upside down neck, stifle problem, couldn’t walk a straight line, couldn’t turn, slab-sided, high-headed with a rock mouth, no conceivable whoa to speak of…I hope I’m giving the right details.

Once I got him and realized the extent of his problems, I wiped the slate clean and started him over from the ground up as if he’d never been started before. I spent over 1-1/2 years the first time retraining, with professional help as needed. He learned to lunge (would run full speed backwards, spook, drag the handler across the ring, hide his hiney, etc. – again, never the same thing twice). He softened to the snaffle bit, learned to straighten, turn, yield to pressure, voice commands for walk and trot and whoa. I started riding again, from the very basics – worked a nice active walk and remedial lateral movements for close to 6 months; the trot took another 8 months. He was extremely front heavy, like he was bogged down in cement, and once ridden would brace and lean against the bit, grab it, run sideways, a number of evasions. I would soften my hands and push him forward, no easy task, and was lucky to come out of it alive each time bc I never knew where we woud end up, face down on the ground, sideways in a tree – you get the idea. His transitions were like two trains colliding and this horse, unlike any I have ever in my life encountered, can move like a verifiable slinky.

To confirm it wasn’t something I was doing, I even paid some top-notch riders (as in Grand Prix) with perfect balance and hands to work him; no difference. So I took on another training professional and we backtracked again. Once we came to the snaffle riding part again; it started all over. Yet I can free lunge him in a HUGE arena with body language and voice commands and he’s fantastic. The trainer I have now won’t ride him in a snaffle any more; he says it’s just not for Dobbin and all we do is play the hard mouthed game instead of teaching him anything. We put him back in a curb and he’s an angel. Yet I feel I have failed and am a crappy horsewoman and am obsessing about it all of the time. I’ve never encountered anything like this with any other horse and I’m not inexperienced. With the curb, it takes very little in the way of aids and seat; only when he decides to test it with something wacky like "ooh, let’s see if I can suddenly gallop sideways towards that other horse" is it used to its effect and now that behavior has been entirely eliminated.

The vet says likely nerve damage in the mouth, after watching me work him in both bits and doing an oral examination. But there is no physical evidence of that in the way of scarring or splitting. I take extraordinary care of Dobbin – regular chiropractor, top vet care, best feed, joint support supplement, massages, equine dentist. He has the best manners of any horse at the barn. I am firm, kind, fair, and when all is accomplished guilty of being a bit of a softie, but never with training or groundwork.

So, first, I’d like to compare what I’ve done with what others do to rebit, to see if something was missed.

Second, has a horse ever made you feel like your previously successful skills and techniques amount to nothing?

Third, have I failed or do I just need to stop driving myself nuts and accept he goes in a curb and that’s that?

I’m really depressed and in a major funk, so please don’t beat me up. I’ve done a dandy job of doing that myself. I even dream about it.

Oh, and Dobbin stays with me for his lifetime. He came to me not to long after my sister died tragically and our bond is strong. I credit him for giving me a reason to live and despite our training challenges, he is meant for me.

I know I’ve asked regarding different facets of this same issue previously. Thanks to all who don’t mind taking another look.

"Before" June 2004: http://pic80.picturetrail.com:80/VOL2132/10980997/19777067/319268439.jpg

"After" May 2008 (Trainer riding in curb): http://pic80.picturetrail.com:80/VOL2132/10980997/19777067/329506367.jpg
Alice ~ you really made me laugh. There were a few tears involved, but it was that fine line between hilarious and OMG I’m crying. I guess I’m worn thin on this issue. Yes, I do a lot of basic dressage in a western saddle now! It fits him best so why quibble, eh Thanks for the laugh. It was well needed. It’s amazing how a horse can go from Mr. Terror to Mr. Manners!!!
Sovereign7 ~ thanks for the links!!!
Based on two good suggestions, I definitely have to revist my kimberwick(s). Yes, I have more than one! I could open my own bit store; it’s kinda ridiculous.

Rosi M ~ horses have strong opinions, don’t they! Your grey said, "No way" <spin on forehand, spin on forehand> It does make me sad what horses endure. It never ceases to amaze me that they let any of us ride them at all. I hope in 10 years I can look back and say, "Oh I remember when Dobbin….guess I did my job after all!" Tee Hee
zephania666 ~ I really like everything you’re saying, especially the yardstick part. Need to start looking at this differently. Sometimes I just get soooo serious bc I know what should be happening in a perfect horse training world.

I am so truly appreciative of ALL of your answers. I guess I didn’t realize how badly I needed some encouragement and someone to say relax. I keep smiling and then getting teary eyed as I read these. It’s like those dratted halmark commercials.
I don’t do thumbs down

Well, I wouldn’t beat myself up about it. It looks to me like dobbin is a great horse, and sounds like you have and are currently doing everyrhing right. Just because he can’t go in a snaffle due to nerve dammage is no big deal. Really, its not your fault. I can understand if you feel bad for him, but you should try to stop mentally abusing yourself. You sound like a very good horsewonam and Dobbin looks happy to work in the second picture.

You are doing western, correct? Well that is what you are doing in the picture (tee hee! lateral movements in a western saddle! I do dressage and am obsessed by it!). It is perfectly fine if you are using a curb bit in western. I would know. I ride one of my friend’s horses and we tried him in a snaffle, fearing that the curb was too harsh. I almost died when he tried to run me into a tree. Well, anyway, we put the curb back in with a curb chain and he is Mr. Manners himself now.

Don’t worry, everyone has ridden that horse that makes you feel like you are an equestrian invalid. It’s not just you. You havce not failed if Dobbin is happier and healthier. That is the main thing: he is out of a horrid situation and into a wonderful one, regaurdless of bits.

I don’t think you should try the snaffle again. He is ovbiously a curb bit horse. Don’t worry about it.

Well, the moral of the story is that you are not doing anything wrong and just need to stop worrying about it. If you keep having dreams about failing, may i suggest psychotherapy?
Well, god luck with dobbin!

I have a horse that I am training for dressage. I need some tips on how to get her to stay in the frame. Like what are the correct aids and should I use draw reins or not. I had one trainer say I should use draw reins. She will do the frame for a couple of seconds, but how do I get her to stay in the frame?

Time and patience.
Correct training does not need gadgets, and I stick by my opinion that draw reins do not help a horse at all.
I ride a horse at my yard, who has been trained to go into an outline using draw reins, he goes so easily on the forehand and the use of draw reins haven’t helped him use himself properly, he tends to move very bunched up – because the draw reins never allowed him to move freely and now he finds it hard to. If he’d not been trained with draw reins, chances are he would have become far more free moving.
Going into an outline takes time, it’s not achieved in five minutes. In order for a horse to go into a consistent outline, then they need to have built the muscles to do it – which can’t be achieved by gadgets. Also if this horse is in training, chances are she’s not balanced enough to stay in the frame and move correctly all the time.
Top dressage horses take years and years to achieve their ability, it does not happen over night.

I am very interested in the bitless bridle and think it would be great to use. But, how to you train your horse to understand aids such as turning and halting without a bit?

the way you get your horse to use a bitless brittle is to just stick it in there mouth and not take it out, all they have to do is get used to it so that they adapt to it and not feel uncompfortable

I’m buying a six year old TB who is athletic, sweet as heck, and an INCREDIBLY fast learner. She was trained to race, but never did. She’s had some ground work done, such as actually learning to STOP when the reins are pulled and how to KIND of turn, haha. I’ve tried her a couple times, and it’s almost scary how fast she learns things.
When I first got on, she could bring her head in to the left (to my boot), but not to the right. As soon as I tried to bring her head in, even if I BARELY wiggled the right rein, she would just scoot to the right. After about ten minutes of working on it, cantering, working on it, trotting, and working on it, she was finally able to bring her nose in to my boot after MUCH reward an praise. We worked on faster and smoother canter transitions, stopping (if she didn’t stop after I sat back and said whoa then we would back up), and circling.
I’ve worked with a bunch of different kinds of horses with all kinds of different problems, but I’ve never worked with an "off the track" TB. I know how I’ll teach her the basics, how to gain muscles, and I know how important patience and positive experiences (praises, relax time, play time, steady paces, routines, good diet, days off, and trust) are, and I believe in quality downtime is very important to let a working horse "just be a horse".
I just need to know the order of what to teach this horse. I know balance first, and then aids, but then what? Should asking for a bend come before or after circle work? When should I introduce collection and half halts? Every time I ride her, should I only introduce one thing at a time and let her get away with everything else?
And I WILL be working with a trainer- a very GOOD and very EXPENSIVE dressage trainer who’s trained her own TB dressage since he was a baby, but since I’ll be basically dumping my wallet on vet checks, vaccinations, and farrier/trimmer jobs, I’ll only be able to get a lesson maybe once a month, especially since she’s a new mom.
Any advice?

First off, thanks for appreciating that horses need time off occasionally and time to "be a horse." I’ve shown at many shows and few people ever grasp this concept.

Second, as far as training, in MY opinion(others may tell you ddifferently and everyone believes their way is the best, lol) I believe that the collection and half-halts can be introduced together but need to be learned early on because that is the basics for the rest of your training in dressage. Also, the bending and circles will help each other so I would also pair those up, and they should also be introduced early and used as building blocks for more complex moves later on. As far as the order of these go, I believe any order would be fine, you won’t hurt the horse by teaching it these things and you will need them in the future to build on. The collection and half-haults MAY help a little with the bending and keeping the horse from getting strong in the circle work, so I would probably introduce those first but either way will work.

I know this might sound strange to some. But I am looking for a way to train my horse to come on command. When close he easily listens. But if we are in the back pasture area and I get far away. Being 3 he likes to run and play and most of the time not listen. Giving me that face of… ha ha you can’t catch me.

So after thinking, I thought a simple dog whistle might work. But asking around the stables no one could tell me if a horse could hear that tone or not.

So I ask this of you all. Can a horse hear that high in tone? Do you think it would work as a training aid or do you think it might freak him out? Or even worse, damage his ears.

I need that 1 tone or sound that I can get him to respond too. I thought about a clicker but figured others would consider me annoying in time due to the sound.
edp: I get get 40 horses to stand at attention in the stables due to 1 crinkle of that same wrapper LOL. I give them all a treat each time I am there and they all know that sound all too well.

Call him at the same click a dog clicker when you reward him for coming, a carrot or something small. After a while he will associate the clicker with rewards and should come when called.

I would prefer the sound of a clicker to that of a whistle, any day!

Whatever sound it is, it is the association that horses learn with.

I know this might sound strange to some. But I am looking for a way to train my horse to come on command. When close he easily listens. But if we are in the back pasture area and I get far away. Being 3 he likes to run and play and most of the time not listen. Giving me that face of… ha ha you can’t catch me.

So after thinking, I thought a simple dog whistle might work. But asking around the stables no one could tell me if a horse could hear that tone or not.

So I ask this of you all. Can a horse hear that high in tone? Do you think it would work as a training aid or do you think it might freak him out? Or even worse, damage his ears.

I need that 1 tone or sound that I can get him to respond too. I thought about a clicker but figured others would consider me annoying in time due to the sound.
edp: I get get 40 horses to stand at attention in the stables due to 1 crinkle of that same wrapper LOL. I give them all a treat each time I am there and they all know that sound all too well.

Call him at the same click a dog clicker when you reward him for coming, a carrot or something small. After a while he will associate the clicker with rewards and should come when called.

I would prefer the sound of a clicker to that of a whistle, any day!

Whatever sound it is, it is the association that horses learn with.

Im going to be training my pony (after i gain enough trust)
And wondering if anyone has any training tips?
Im going to be teaching her to jump by using the lunge etc.
Teaching her the canter leg aids
And helping her get her balance, esp in canter
And eventually dressage movements.

Any tips please?
Indigo Smith what does O.o that mean?
No shes already backed.
No dont have a trainer, training her but i do take lessons, but on school horses. I am thinking on taking lessons on her though.

Ask a real trainer, not one of the "trainers" on this site. There have been a few real trainers here that could give sound advice, but they usually don’t stay long, and you’ll have to be much more specific about what you want to train or where you are having problems.

It is hard to tell good advice from bad on here. Ask a person you know to be a real trainer, not someone from this site.

I want to train race horses and I have a great connection in Kentucky but I want to be ready for it when i get there can anyone aid me in some great links to educate me in the terminology and the tactics of this sport I am great with the groom skills I want to dive further into it and need some better sites to research horse racing. I want the whole KABANG

www.reyenterprise.com

Ok, as a rule I don’t like training aids…I think they’re a quick fix for people who can’t train properly. However, I’m helping train a horse to work on the bit and in an outline but he’s too small for me to ride. Can you recommend any lunging aids?
Thanks, just to mention this horse is not a youngster


I do not like "training aids" either.

I would prefer to use just side reins and make sure that he is going forward and tracking up from behind. He will then naturally drop into an outline. I believe that the face should be no more than vertical to the ground and the horse should be holding the bit, ready to increase speed or come back when asked without resistance. Try correctly placed trotting poles which should help him to track up – ie his hind feet should be stepping almost into the foot prints left by the fore feet.

Whatever you do don’t fall for these draw reins. They need a rider with strong leg and seat aids and force a horse into an ugly, over bent way of going.

Correct schooling under saddle, ie poles, many turns and circles, leg yielding will help some, I know you cannot ride him, but when the owner can that might be something to point out.

And if the horse is older, it is likely that it will take some time, but I still say correct riding is the only way!

I have noticed that some horses simply are not physically built to go in an outline – and who first said that they should go with arched necks? And all these training aids are a waste of money and tantamount to cruelty.

I was wondering how i get my horse Wheaties to frame up while im lunging him and riding him. Is their a special training device to aid in this and hold their neck in place? He is only 4 years old so i want to be able to teach him to fraame up.

Thanks Alot!

Side reins are very helpful when lunging. If you don’t have an experienced friend or trainer to demonstrate their use, then I would suggest you find a training book or video (I like GG Bailey’s Hunter Under saddle video, it shows the use of sidereins in detail) so that you know how high to fasten them at first, how tight to use them at first and what sort of reins to use. Many trainers use regular reins, but I think there is alot of benefit in the elastic reins, the elastic gives so the horse doesn’t get to contained and restricted feeling at first, and is less likely to panic.
If you lunge your horse in sidereins, make sure you don’t start with them too tight, just take him somewhat past his normal frame of movement. And keep the first day or two to just a walk and trot, when they canter most horses tend to raise their head a bit so it can be scarey for them with sidereins at first. I would lunge with sidereins for a week before worrying about framing up your horse while riding.
Once again, i would really recommend a trainers lessons a time or two for framing a horse, it will make your job alot easier. Just remember that you need as much leg as you do hand to frame a horse. I begin with my horse at a halt. I apply pressure with both legs at the same time I gather both reins. I do not release pressure until the horse drops his neck and flexes at the pole. So that means I keep pressure if he backs up, or if he bobs his head, or if he flexes at the pole but doesn’t drop his neck, etc. But it is essential that you release pressure the second he drops his neck and head, even if it isn’t perfect. Give him a few seconds to think about it, then apply leg and hand pressure again. If you are really prompt on giving him relief when he’s in the proper position, and don’t reward the wrong action, your horse can learn the basics in one quick lesson. Then its just the matter of doing the same thing at a walk, trot and canter, and this process can take months or years to get perfect.
Good luck and keep safe! A properly framed horse will not only look better, but move better and is worth the effort.